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Choosing A Gun For Survival, Caliber, Scope, Brand Model
#1
First of all, I need to say you are blessed in the US when it comes to buying guns in the US.

Here in Spain it is very restricted!

To own a gun in Spain you must first of all join a gun club. Then you must pass a written exam and a shooting test with a handgun at 25 yards and a rifle at 50 yards ( open sight- standing free). If you pass this then you wait 3 to 5 month and you get a gun permit to buy ONE gun. Then you order the gun (mostly the are not available in the store or to try out) This gun is then sent to the police where you can pick it up. Now you need to shoot at least 3 competitions a year to be able to renew the gun permit- if not the gun will be taken from you. If you shoot a certain score and you become a "better" shooter you can own more guns. Mostly up to 6.

You are also restricted in the ammo you can buy. ( For handguns 100 rounds a year- which you can keep at home). As a sport shooter you can buy ammo at the gun range ( limited to what they have) For reloading you need a permit and can only buy 100 primers and 2 lb of powder at a time,,,



Since I hunt I also can have shotguns ( up to 6),22 lr rifle and a "big bore" rifle. Normally they also restrict the caliber to 8mm....

So when I buy a gun, I really research what I want/ need.... the second thing here is that guns are way more expensive then in the US...

Even for my hunting guns , I want very good accuracy ( want all the advantage I can get and want to have the feeling that I can "trust" my gun)

Over the years I have use many scopes from cheap to expensive....

I found , that it is not always the gun which is not accurate...it´s the scope. I used nice 22 lr rifle and from time to time ( especially if it was in the truck for a long time and I was driving a lot of off road), the gun lost it zero. On another scope when I changed magnification it changed point of impact and so on....

So I decided to test some scopes. I used a very accurate gun ( benchrest rifle in 6br) . I found that depending on the scope I use , also the groups changed. Further more , a lot of them have no repeatable adjustment and some of them loose zero after enough vibration. I just lost faith in tascos, bsa, Hawke, and all the others I had.....maybe I am wrong, but here I can´t just buy and test....and keep in mind that a redfield 4-12x40 is arround 600 $ , a Leopold VX 1 3-9 700$, burris 3-12 700$ and for a 900 I can get a Schmidt and Benders 6x42...

So that brings me to a " survival gun".This guns will be for survival, if you would only have this one gun to hunt, defend yourself ect....It also should be easy to transport,or carry ( e.g.large backpack). So no 15 lb rifle...). The barrel needs to be over 12.5 inch and the gun itself over 25 inch by law to be a rifle and therefore the be able to buy. Changing or modefications on guns is illegal here..., so no cutting down barrels, ect.... I want a gun ( rifle) which I can absolutely trust when I need it. The first question is caliber. I decided against a shotgun, as I feel it is ammo weight to calories is what I am looking for. ( A squirrel with a 12 ga- can also carry an oz of peanut butter and don´t need to find the squirrel....you get my idea). Yes, you can carry a lot of 22lr, but a pig or deer gives more meat and I feel the 22lr is a bad choice!? So a 222 rem or 223 perhaps? I have shot goat, deer, and small game (FMJ) with it. Not ideal for larger game than deer though...but then a 308 is out for small game....( reloading here difficult...( and therefore not really possible for low velocity loads and testing thereof...)

So my question:

Which bolt action rifle would you buy? Which caliber and why (only options: 22lr ( not magnum), 222 rem, 223 rem, 243 win, 270 win,6.5x55, 308 win,30-06, 300 win mag)

My requirements: Needs to shoot less the 1 inch groups ( 5 shots) at 100 m with ( quality)factory ammo.

As a scope I consider a Schmidt and Benders, Zeiss, Kahles or Swarovski, Nightforce? but which one? Manifications,ect... Which scope mount?

I want to keep it simple and price is also a concern... I would prefer not to spend more than 3500-4000 US $ complete....

What would you buy?

Thanks for all your help!!
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#2
Bolt guns are not what I consider the best for survival, when protective services are included, but of the calibers you mentioned, the .223 Remington and .308 Winchester are the only two readily available in the semi-auto configuration, more appropriate as a defensive weapon.



Having said that...... At one time, or another, I have used seven of the nine cartridges on your list, and of the calibers you listed, I would pick the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser hands down. With lighter bullets small game can easily be taken, and not destroyed. With heaver bullets the 6.5x55 Mauser is deadly on deer and larger game also. It is a flat shooting cartridge that wind has less effect on over most of the rest of the cartridges you noted and it is soft on the shoulder, so if a female or youth is included in your party, the 6.5x55 can easily be master by either.



I personally believe the 6.5x55 is a very underrated cartridge in the America's. I don't know how its availability compares with the other cartridges in Spain, but since it is a cartridge you listed, I am assuming it is reasonable available there.



Looking back I only partially answered you question. The CZ is the only manufacturer currently offering a rifle in caliber 6.5x55 in this country, and of the offerings from CZ, I would recommend the CZ550FS (Full Stock) in 6.5x55 caliber, basically because I prefer a rifle with sights and I like the Mannlicher style stock also. With a 20.6 inch barrel it should be fast into action, but really offers no advantage over the other two CZ models, the CZ 550 Sporter & CZ Sporter Synthetic who each have 20.5 inch barrels. The three position safety is the only one to consider and the CZ comes standard with the three position safety. I will never purchase another center fire rifle without the three position safety.



The CZ550FS has an internal magazine, 5 rounds for the 6.5x55 if I am not mistaken, and I have used rifles with detachable magazines, hinged floor plates and fixed internal magazines all three. I have never experienced a problem with any of the three, but I guess the detachable box magazine would be my preference if I am totally honest. But the fixed internal magazine does not have any lips to get bent or damaged, and there is no hinged plated to malfunction and lose ones ammo at the worst possible time. The fixed internal magazine would be my second choice of the three types, but in all reality it may actually be the best of the three magazines, and I certainly would not consider it a negative, although some may. The fixed internal magazine also eliminates openings into the rifle whereby trash, dirt and other small particles can migrate into the rifles internal mechanism and those box magazines which extend below their rifles stock can also present problems in handling any rifle so equipped, so the internal magazine all-in-all has a lot going for itself.



Another comment, talk to people who you know and possibly you can view their rifles and by seeing and handling the product you get a better feel and understanding of the

product. Read online review of the products and study ballistic tables for the calibers you are considering.



And a final comment. Of the nine calibers you have listed, the 22LR, 222 Rem & 223 Rem are really to small for large game although a stealthy hunter could probably take larger game with all three, but the chance of wounding & loosing larger game with these three is something I have to consider. Of the four largest calibers, the .270 Win, .308 Win, .30-06 Springfield & .300 Win Mag most small game will be pulverized, evaporated or wasted, unless you are capable of shooting the heads off said animals. Of the remaining two, the .243 Win & 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser both have similar power and both will equally handle harvesting small and large game animals, although the 6.5x55 Mauser has a slight edge in ammunition choices, power and overall performance. It will always be my choice, from those you provided, but I am probably biased towards its selection. But of the choices you provided the .243 Winchester is the only other all-around caliber to compete with the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser in my opinion.



Opinions are like "belly-buttons" and most all of us have one. I hope you find just what you are looking for, and one that's a winner for you & your situation.
Jimbo
Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. - Theodore Roosevelt 1907 
Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.  - Theodore Roosevelt 1918
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatrotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt

The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
I fear the day that technology surpass our human interaction.  The world will have a generation of idiots. - Albert Einstein

The optomist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears that this is true! - James B. Cabell
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#3
If it's a bolt action you want. This is the one https://steyrarms.com/steyr-scout.html
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#4
[quote name='7.62' timestamp='1493929299' post='613449']

If it's a bolt action you want. This is the one https://steyrarms.com/steyr-scout.html

[/quote]

This would be my first choice, if you can afford it. I have taken everything from rabbits to elk with .308 with little to no damage to the meat. Don't try to make any long shots, I stay under one hundred yards or I don't take the shot. If you can't get within one hundred yards of a large game animal you aren't much of a hunter. The longest shot I have ever made on elk was fifty one yards. When shooting small game don't shoot them in the head. Aim for the guts. It cuts them in half but no usable meat is damaged, and they don't run very far.





Muleskinner,
He who hesitates is lost.



If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.



Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.



You can lead a fool to talk, but you can't make him think.



Sometimes I wake up grumpy, and sometimes I let her sleep.



There are damm few problems that can't be fixed, with a long handled shovel and a thirty ought six.
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#5
The 6.5x55 is my altime favorite cartridge.I have killed deer,elk,moose with it .Nu fuss no bother just dead.As for the platform i agree the bolt gun is the way to go,my last and present is a '94 Swedish Mauser.I believe TIKA and SACO both build one.I cannot help with the scopes,mine are 20+ years old and still work for me.
a armed man is his own master
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#6
ladaspain, have you chosen your survival rifle & scope combination?



Curious minds!
Jimbo
Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. - Theodore Roosevelt 1907 
Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.  - Theodore Roosevelt 1918
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatrotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt

The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
I fear the day that technology surpass our human interaction.  The world will have a generation of idiots. - Albert Einstein

The optomist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears that this is true! - James B. Cabell
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#7
Ladaspain I am not sure if you are still monitoring this but if you are and you want an excellent rifle in a major caliber which you can hunt all European big game and all African plains game I would agree with Muleskinner that a bolt action .308 Winchester/ 7.62 Nato will answer most of your needs.In your price range the Sako and Tikka rifles from Finland are well built and have an excellent reputation for out of the box accuracy. I have two Tikkas one in 25-06 and one in .338 Win. Mag. As well I have a Sako stainless A-7 in .308 win.

Note: Sold the 25-06 in October Griz

This is the one I would recommend. I have Leupould Mounts and a Leupould 4-16 power scope with a 30 mm tube on mine which makes it able to hunt close in or far away and a 400 meter kill on a deer size animal is not out of the question. Also the 4-14 allows a fair bit of advantage in the 3-4 shoots at the range you are obligated to participate in. I have a Harris Bipod for prone competition but prefer sandbags for long range hunting. Hornady Superformance ammunition SST is my current favourite, but in Europe you have many fine ammunition manufacturers to choose from.Also there are military sources which may lessen the cost of shooting for you. All Nato countries use 5.56 Nato ; 7.62 Nato , .338 Lapua and .50 BMG in their arsenals.

My rifle as it sits would cost around $3,000.00 Canadian which would be a little more than E2000.00 Euros and is well in your price range.

A good spotting scope and a range finder as well as quality binoculars would be good added features. The European scopes you mentioned are all very good and Vortex Optics are new on the optics market and have the reputation of being 90% Swarovski quality at 1/2 the price.

Good Luck

Let us know how you make out.
Hopefully the S won't HTF and I pray every day that it won't. It would not be fun.



I have a high art..I wound with cruelty, all who wound me...Archillocus; 650 B.C.
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#8
Sounds exactly like my most recent acquisition sans scope, Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle in .308!
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#9
I got a Ruger scout a while back, a lefty.

Nice gun, havent really wrung it out yet but so far I have only found two negatives and they are minor.

Bottom metal is synthetic
Rifle is HEAVY...but that means robust and I like robust.
Live with honor, ride with truth.  Be friendly to others.  But always carry a gun on your side and a knife in your boot because there are those that do not feel the same as this.


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#10
My advice is listen to Muleskinner.
"A Nation of Sheep will beget a government of wolves." Edward R. Murrow

"Bring me a GREEN one, I'll scrub the patchoulli off her!" Ghostwolf.
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#11
I'm a big fan of the .22lr for a survival hunting round. When most people bug out they aren't going to be surrounded by herds of deer, elf, bison, etc. Where ever you bug out you will be surrounds by squirrels, rabbits, opossum, skunk, birds, water foul, etc ... all easily dropped with a .22lr. I can carry 500 .22lr rounds in a sammich bag that would only hold a handful of 7.62x51 and at most 30 rounds of 5.56x45. .22lr is so plentiful it falls from the sky when it rains.

For larger targets of opportunity I would use a smooth bore 12 gauge. Small shot for birds and small mammals and buck/slug for 2 leg and large 4 leg targets. You should be able to find shotgun rounds very easily all over the place as well.

Now if you start to talk about 2 legged targets that shoot back, most firearms in .22lr or 12 gauge aren't ideal for that. I know the distance I will engage a rabbit or a duck in with my .22lr. I know the distance I'm going to engage a white tail deer in with my 12 gauge. I don't know the distance I'm going to engage a 2 legged shooter in. If you're at 400 yards, they have the high ground, take you by surprise, and are shooting a .338 ... unless you have a helicopter strike you can call in your backpack you is "Am Fek". This also needs to take into account your perceived style. Most guys will think that they are Rambo and charge with their M60 blazing ... but that isn't how the real world works. In the real world you want to screw off as fast as you can from that situation.

In my neck of the woods I can't find any of this fancy shooting ammo like some of you can, so i'f i'm going after 2 legged shooters because I have no choice I would want something in 7.62X51, 5.56X45, or 30-06 in that order as they are easy to find in most places.

A pistol for me is the tool you use to get to your rifle so I'm looking at something with stopping power. I carry a 10MM because that is the cats ass, but a good revolver .357, .44, .460 (which shoots .460, .454, and .45CL) are also good choices.
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#12
In many respects I agree with you assessment of the .22LR, and would certainly want one available if at all possible.  There are approximately 130 rounds per pound of weight and 500 rounds roughly weight only 3.7 pounds so that aspect is fantastic.  It is quite which is also good.  Used with in its limits the .22 LR is an excellent choice, and its limits can be pushed in extreme circumstances, but for larger animals I would want something a little more powerful.  The worst aspect is that one is limited to manufactured ammo and once that supply is exhausted the .22 is then only a fancy club. 

The shotgun could be useful, but it would not be that high on my list of priorities.  It is useful for intimidation purposes, and as a house or cabin gun one could be nice to have around but shotguns are heavy, their ammunition is extremely heavy, wasteful of shot, powder & they are quite noisy.  All 12 Ga 2 3/4 inch ammo allows only 10 rounds or less per pound of weight carried, or to put it another way about 45 rounds equals five pounds.  

For a few other comparisons:
37 rounds of 5.56 X 45 ammo = 1 pound
27 rounds of 7.62 X 39 lacquered steel ammo = 1 pound
20 rounds .30-30 Winchester ammo = 1 pound
19 rounds of 7.63 X 51 ammo = 1 pound
4 rounds of .50 BMG ammo exceeds 1 pound slightly 
47 rounds of .380 ACP ammo = 1 pound
38 rounds of 9 X 19 NATO ammo = 1 pound
28 rounds of .40 S & W ammo = 1 pound
21 rounds of .45 ACP ammo = 1 pound

Where one is located and/or expects to bug out to, has a great deal to do with the calibers they may prefer in a survival situation.  In the Alaskan wilderness the choices would be different from the West Texas, Arizona & New Mexico area I am sure, and both would most likely still be different from the swamps of Florida.  Other areas would probably have considerable overlapping in caliber choices and what is right for one does not make it right for another, but it certainly does not make it wrong for another.  

Where several individuals or families are planning on banding together for strength and united in a common goal, a caliber or calibers universal to the group should be planned and the core calibers will most likely be centered around those calibers common to the military and/or law enforcement.

IF, game is available in one's area then a good hunting caliber would be desirable, in addition to both good offensive & defensive caliber weapons.  It would also be desirable that each person of a mature age & capacity have their own weapon. 

Weapons are an essential part of planning for any survival situation, especial any long term saga, but there are many other things of equal, if not greater importance, for those situation involving terms of shorter duration, where weapons often times are never really needed or called for.  Planning for what is most likely to occur in you part of the country is more likely going to give you an edge on survival.  Is it a Winter Storm with power outages?  Flooding?  Volcanoes?  Hurricanes?  Tornadoes?  Rioting and/or rioters?  A terrorist action?  Loss of employment?  Health issues - - - sickness, injury, accident?  Sometimes we get caught up in focusing on just the small part we wish to concentration on concerning a survival scenario, rather than looking at the entire picture and planning on what has the greatest potential to come our way.  It would be foolish to consider flooding the greatest threat to someone living on the prairie, the same as considering a volcano the greatest threat to someone living along the Gulf Coast. We need to plan with realistic and realism in setting our objectives for being prepared.  I sometime forget and want to only concern myself with certain aspects of the survival game, so some of my comments can be easily directed towards my own self. 

Considering the ten greatest possibilities for survival in ones given area could be the beginning of formulating a well thought plan for survival.  Some things can not always be predicted or anticipated either one, but with a well though out and executed plan, it should be adaptable to a number of different situations.
Jimbo
Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. - Theodore Roosevelt 1907 
Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.  - Theodore Roosevelt 1918
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatrotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt

The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
I fear the day that technology surpass our human interaction.  The world will have a generation of idiots. - Albert Einstein

The optomist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears that this is true! - James B. Cabell
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#13
It's interesting that this thread rises back up just when Catalonia is seceding from Spain.
Men are, that they might have joy.
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#14
(10-27-2017, 10:37 PM)thatmckenzie Wrote: It's interesting that this thread rises back up just when Catalonia is seceding from Spain.

 excellent point
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#15
This may be a drive by question
He gone Cool
Hopefully the S won't HTF and I pray every day that it won't. It would not be fun.



I have a high art..I wound with cruelty, all who wound me...Archillocus; 650 B.C.
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