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BOWS
#1
Ok im here to tell the truth, whole truf nothing but the truf ..... ill try to keep this short but its a 5 year saga of trials and tribulations!!!  its ending with good news --hooray!!!!!!!!!!! glad to share it with my friends!

As many of you's already know....Archer taught me how to be a bowyer and I fell for it--hard...REALLY HARD! Big Grin Cool

That must have been challenging for him because I didnt have any previous experience building things with my hands, but apparently I am quite good at it....got a knack for it so to speak. In reality, the closer you can get to symmetry in your limbs, the more evenly your bow is tillered and the straighter it is, the better a bow it will be. It is imperative that everything line up perfectly straight---easier said than done eh--when your heated material handles like a squid tentacle!

we've been at a standstill for a few years because we (mostly Archer) are Pioneers in the PVC bow field ..we are figuring out as we move along and its not been easy--- but you guys know i never ever give up, so Ive been working and failing and working and failing and failing and working.... (working and failing at my goal of producing a perfectly, perfectly straight PVC bow, not the 'nuff principle here--anyone can rough out a PVC bow at home, im talking PRO level)

Look at all these failed attempts at perfection each of these pieces costs me 5$ 
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A few years ago, I was already giving out prototypes of (Curtis' design) one of a kind-- Archers Ultimate Survival Bow (USB)  (Art Edwards got one, Norseman, Abowoman, Jesse Hood, JBarrows friend  Scotty, Grizzly Dave's got one, 90 North had one) plus about 10 of my other friends and a few of their kids) I thought we might be ready to start selling them--people wanted to buy them--we even had a website built! 

But then IT happened.... Huh

my 45# favorite 5 pc takedown bow shattered violently at full draw in my hand....hahah the old joke bring me my brown pants comes to mind. Oh it wasnt that bad but it caught me off guard...

now---the temperature dont get that cold in Washington where Curt rigorously tested them....so he said that had never happened to him, in fact until it happened to me, we didnt know that could happen to PVC, we thought it would crack, fold or limb failure NOT slightly explode...

at first my whole arm was vibrating, I wasn't sure what had happened, felt like the damn kid from Christmas Story--you'll shoot your eye out!! my cheek hurt alittle...I was left holding the handle of the bow--with the upper limb cracked off about half way and laying feet away and the bottom limb broken off but still attached to the bowstring hanging there.... I believe the process went something like ---my bow was sitting out in minus 15 C for a few hours, i was nearing my last shots of the day, 28" full draw ---just before release and boom....im like w the actual f ?


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it shattered on the bottom limb near the fades (where ALL bows fail if they fail) the stored energy--upon release cracked the upper limb off and sent er flying and pulled the lower limb towards my face, luckily I escaped with only a little scratch on my cheek, I shudder to think if that was the eye of a child that I had made a bow for...I actually almost recalled them Shy  but I looked into it and I realized any of the kids I made 18# to 25# bows for (if they too failed) would be safe because there wasnt enough energy even in the 45# pound one to break my skin, it lost all of its energy the moment it was compromised...by the time the sharp plastic from the limb hit me, it was very weak...

So by this time I was thinking this is not the "ultimate survival bow" if you cant use it in the winter.......I tested my bows and experienced another failure the winter after on a minus 20 day....my friend Brent pulled it past 30" (that WILL void your warranty btw) and same thing as the other---it shattered, nothing hit him...he was fine. BUT by this time I know more research is needed! now Archer and I explored all the reasons why those bows may have broken and the others had not---scratches in the paint let UV light in and weakened it? imperceptible limb twists or bulges (hinges, convexities)? we did not know why! I might add I have built about 50 bows of different types and out of the 50... 2 have failed like that! i always wondered why other bows I took out in even colder weather (which were the same 2 years old, also were not perfect, also had paint missing) had not shattered. I decided to try experimenting with a rubber sealant spray that will stop the bow from flying around/ being dangerous if it shatters--so far I dont know yet because I cant get the ones I have now to actually shatter LOL Big Grin  figures old Murphys law...

this IS WHY!!!!!!!!! my god--this dude saved me --he figured it out! some PVC is faulty and brittle and will shatter when hit with a hammer--other pipes from the same store, rack, batch will not! eureka!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-kyGn_bj84

so this literally changes everything...I built a few bows last week and I took the 2 ft garbage pieces that were left and gave them some whacks with a hammer--guess what---1 of the pieces shattered to oblivion and the other 2 did not....i took out one of the bows that shattered years ago, whacked it and it failed the hammer test--it shattered...the bows that have lasted , pieces left from those pipes pass the hammer test!! oh happy day!

here is one of my trusty rusty's --this bow is 4 years old, 50# and is scratched to shit and has a slight limb variation and is still going strong...seen many winters!  
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 ...I am not sure how much you know about my plans---but I dream of one day quitting my job and selling bows full time or doing something survival related...foolish pipe dreams I know (other areas I am exploring for survival income  are the survival games with Jesse/Mako and a troubled youth survival camp)....but my requirement has always been to sell a product which is superior for a very reasonable price, thats the only products im interested in ever selling or buying!

Thats one of the reasons we got so hard into the PVC bow making....so so so many benefits from the perspective of buyer, seller and maker!

actually our PVC bows, I'd wager are superior to traditional wood and fiberglass bows in nearly every aspect--the material cost much less, the possibilities for design, draw weight ect are nearly endless, they are 90% quicker to make, less expensive equipment to purchase to get started, they are more durable, take less set, give less hand shock, are performing in extreme wet, heat and (cold?  Dodgy or so we thought), snappy--lots of fps,  .... ect yada yada...

we've been through inventing multiple types of presses and jigs 
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and now we can move past this spontaneous shattering phenomenon! Its not a mistake on my part, its faulty material....

I am overjoyed! literally....

here is some pics of my newest bow---very proud of this one 40# at 28" as straight as humanely possible, 1 piece traditional bow, wrapped with camo cloth tape and sealed with rubber sealant and clear coated...ready for me to go test--good thing too because my shoulders killing me shooting a 50# bow!


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Thanks for looking, listening.....it has sure been a long process...im learning all the time!

AOC
"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."--Thomas Jefferson

"Buy land- they are not making it anymore"- Mark Twain

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile €”hoping it will eat him last." -Winston Churchill

"Wilderness is in our hearts first and always. All of us can't have a cabin in the mountains. It's the wilderness within we must strive for first."- R. Sullivan
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#2
I like that press
Live with honor, ride with truth.  Be friendly to others.  But always carry a gun on your side and a knife in your boot because there are those that do not feel the same as this.


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#3
could you use/ try useing some flex seal tape ??? it's some tuff sh*t.
Tryker

A man who brags about how smart he is, wouldn't if he was.

If the golden rule says, ''Silence Is Golden'' Why is duck tape silver???








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#4
(03-12-2019, 08:57 PM)TRYKER Wrote: could you use/ try useing some flex seal tape ??? it's some tuff sh*t.

oh cool, man! I didn't know they made flex seal TAPE! I am using "leak seal" aerosol spray because I couldn't find flex seal in Ottawa!

I certainly can give the flex seal tape a try! It might be even easier than the spray!

I have been working on overcoming and conquering these problems for years....
"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."--Thomas Jefferson

"Buy land- they are not making it anymore"- Mark Twain

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile €”hoping it will eat him last." -Winston Churchill

"Wilderness is in our hearts first and always. All of us can't have a cabin in the mountains. It's the wilderness within we must strive for first."- R. Sullivan
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#5
(03-12-2019, 06:46 PM)Kid Couteau Wrote: I like that press

Hahah Wink you like that eh?! Joes such a talented engineer!He made that for me for Christmas....but Im hard to please...I wanted it to be almost fully automated, easy to place my hot PVC into, strong, heavy, lightning fast press (you got maybe 3-4 seconds before the tip of the pipe cools) and I needed the machine to make the bows to come out straight....it works pretty good...but not good enough---yet!

Its made of old piano legs, a few pieces of square steel tubing welded, an old scissor jack and an attachment for the drill...the attachment shakes when I drill it down to open the jack which squishes the hot PVC--that causes it to wiggle in its holder  Sleepy ....so were going to get back working on that soon.....

this dude, backyard bowyer, just squishes the taper with his hands...and I cant see how he can get predictability that way....I cant but maybe he can....


AOC
"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."--Thomas Jefferson

"Buy land- they are not making it anymore"- Mark Twain

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile €”hoping it will eat him last." -Winston Churchill

"Wilderness is in our hearts first and always. All of us can't have a cabin in the mountains. It's the wilderness within we must strive for first."- R. Sullivan
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#6
The shattering pvc is good to know.thanks 

Nicholas Tomihama was at Wabbit Stick a few years ago. He was very good!!! Some of his bows were amazing. Made a bow and atlatl with him.

Working on a gig to make snowshoes from pvc. Got to love the stuff.

When you use hot water are you submergeing it. Or running hot water through it??? Never thought about running water through it, might be the way to go.
remember what the Dormouse said

"Learn from others mistakes. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself." Eleanor Roosevelt
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#7
(03-12-2019, 04:34 PM)Adapt-Overcome-Conquer Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-kyGn_bj84

 ...I am not sure how much you know about my plans---
.
Congratulations AOC.
Great video by the way, thanks.
If you are looking for a business model,.......... these people have achieved commercial success on a grand scale.
https://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/
Shy
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#8
(03-12-2019, 08:57 PM)TRYKER Wrote: could you use/ try useing some flex seal tape ??? it's some tuff sh*t.

Thanks Smile

https://www.flexsealproducts.com/
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#9
(03-13-2019, 05:22 PM)caver56 Wrote: The shattering pvc is good to know.thanks 

Nicholas Tomihama was at Wabbit Stick a few years ago. He was very good!!! Some of his bows were amazing. Made a bow and atlatl with him.

Working on a gig to make snowshoes from pvc. Got to love the stuff.

When you use hot water are you submergeing it. Or running hot water through it??? Never thought about running water through it, might be the way to go.

Yes Archer told me recently that he knows Nick--the backyard bowyer!

Cool, I have always wanted to attend wabbit stick...so did you look at some of his bows closely, was the limb taper even?

Yes  Big Grin the PVC shattering may seem like an aside to some people but for me it was life altering--I mean I have been trying to solve this problem for many years! Now that I have a reliable test I can do the pipe I am more than thrilled! I feel like all my doubts about the integrity of my bows are solved!

and another thing ---this Nick guy mentions in one of his vids that he has been handling a wood, fiberglass and PVC bow during shattering/exploding before (because its a common phenomenon with wood and fiberglass bows as well) and he said the PVC is actually the least dangerous of all to have shatter in your hand!

Ok so to answer your Q about boiling , just submerge in boiling water, turn off the stove and the PVC pipe is instantly flexible to work with...but it wasn't an ideal method of heating for my bow limbs because they are too long---it works GREAT with pieces cut small enough to fit in a pot of water.....my personal preference and discoveries on heating the PVC pipe has evolved over the years, with Archers help and my own...are as follows

1) started with the standard cardboard trough lined with aluminum foil and a heat gun, cons of the method are: it takes long, you must constantly attend to the pipe and heat gun and turn it, thereby actually breathing in chlorine gas fumes....Archer said he never noticed, but I did....after spending 5 or 6 hours on and off hovering above the pipe while its heating --your eyes will burn, you might get a headache ect...you can smell chlorine.

2) graduated to his heating box design, foil lined....using 3 staggered heat lamps...solves the problems mentioned above, but introduces 2 new ones---it makes for un even heating of the pipe...even with a thermometer in the box--maybe a fan is needed to distribute the heat evenly?...and it doesnt support the pipe well during heating--so--it causes it to sag and deform occasionally... which makes it very difficult to get a PERFECT bow...

3) Joe suggested boiling water, it works great--you just boil the water and drop the PVC piece in, it works quick, except the logistics of having a 2 foot (length if 1 limb of my bows) pot of boiling water on...is messy and dangerous and costly... not ideal for me

4) my NEW experiment will be a PVC heating blanket--which might solve ALL the problems --hopefully without introducing anything new!!! Big Grin Cool Confused
"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."--Thomas Jefferson

"Buy land- they are not making it anymore"- Mark Twain

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile €”hoping it will eat him last." -Winston Churchill

"Wilderness is in our hearts first and always. All of us can't have a cabin in the mountains. It's the wilderness within we must strive for first."- R. Sullivan
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#10
(03-14-2019, 12:58 AM)Deerstalker Wrote:
(03-12-2019, 04:34 PM)Adapt-Overcome-Conquer Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-kyGn_bj84

 ...I am not sure how much you know about my plans---
.
Congratulations AOC.
Great video by the way, thanks.
If you are looking for a business model,.......... these people have achieved commercial success on a grand scale.
https://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/
Shy

WOW --they certainly have! My brain was like going a mile a minute reading about all the amazing classes they teach and they have teaching opportunities--that sound so sweet--they even a have a resident bowyer!!!!

Strange coincidence because a friend from just down the road here in Ontario, moved recently near Canberra in Aussy land!...maybe their resident bowyer would like to have me out one day for a guest "lecture" on PVC bow making...the premise and physics are nearly the same as wood bows....

I wonder if Brumby our Auzzy Hoodlum has ever been there?
"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."--Thomas Jefferson

"Buy land- they are not making it anymore"- Mark Twain

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile €”hoping it will eat him last." -Winston Churchill

"Wilderness is in our hearts first and always. All of us can't have a cabin in the mountains. It's the wilderness within we must strive for first."- R. Sullivan
Reply
#11
(03-14-2019, 10:07 PM)Adapt-Overcome-Conquer Wrote: I wonder if Brumby our Auzzy Hoodlum has ever been there?

The only Brumbie I've met is from the US - Houston for a while - not sure where he is now?

http://forum.hoodswoods.net/member.php?a...ile&uid=79
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#12
AOC, have you ever used any schedule 80 PVC?  It is grey, and UV resistant.  

Just a thought/suggestion.
Jimbo
If everything is a case for gun control, then nothing is. - Charles C. W. Cooke

Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. - Theodore Roosevelt 1907 
Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country.  - Theodore Roosevelt 1918

The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
I fear the day that technology surpass our human interaction.  The world will have a generation of idiots. - Albert Einstein

The optomist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears that this is true! - James B. Cabell
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#13
Great info with that video! I had a PVC staff I put many miles on. I really liked that staff. Twas in the Cohutta mountains of north Georgia. I whacked my staff on a dead limb and it just shattered unexpectantly. Your info has been most enlightening! I will surely test any more PVC I get from now on! Keep up the good work!
Message of Insight and Unity 

We go into the wilderness to fulfill our hearts and empty our minds of life's garbage.
The gear we leave behind and the challenges we encounter, 
Are methods we use to cleanse our spirits.
Of Survivalists and Bushcrafters, Primitive Technologists too, we are one.........

It is the wilderness within, we strive for first and always.
Not everyone can have a cabin in the mountains.
The thread that connects us, is fine like silk and strong as steel.
Together, the song of the wilderness is the song we sing!

"And can I say something else?"
Bushcrafting is "doing what you want to do." 
Survival is "doing what you have to do"
Primitive Technology is about all of the above........

By TNRR aka "Survival Sully"
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