Welcome, Guest
You have to register before you can post on our site.



Search Forums

(Advanced Search)

Forum Statistics
» Members: 5,595
» Latest member: Operatord
» Forum threads: 22,168
» Forum posts: 275,671

Full Statistics

Latest Threads
Alternative to butter.
Forum: Wilderness Cooking Forum
Last Post: Limey Pete
2 hours ago
» Replies: 12
» Views: 180
Becker Kabar 62
Forum: Knives and Assorted Weapons
Last Post: Deerstalker
02-19-2019, 04:40 AM
» Replies: 26
» Views: 545
Centerline Systems Gear
Forum: Backpacking and Gear Testing
Last Post: Adapt-Overcome-Conquer
02-18-2019, 04:54 PM
» Replies: 9
» Views: 406
Great new stuff video
Forum: Questions and Answers
Last Post: Tn Ridge Rover
02-18-2019, 12:36 AM
» Replies: 0
» Views: 75
ATI Omni Hybrid budget bu...
Forum: Knives and Assorted Weapons
Last Post: Kid Couteau
02-17-2019, 01:51 AM
» Replies: 2
» Views: 53
The update I promised
Forum: Welcome To The Hoodlums
Last Post: Tn Ridge Rover
02-15-2019, 01:21 PM
» Replies: 9
» Views: 371
Benchmade Puukko200
Forum: Knives and Assorted Weapons
Last Post: jbarrow
02-10-2019, 07:34 PM
» Replies: 8
» Views: 247
well now
Forum: Welcome To The Hoodlums
Last Post: jbarrow
02-07-2019, 03:07 AM
» Replies: 12
» Views: 617
Survival Movie Critique
Forum: Urban Survival Skills
Last Post: Limey Pete
02-06-2019, 10:58 AM
» Replies: 29
» Views: 987
Back in the saddle here!!
Forum: Welcome To The Hoodlums
Last Post: Longrifle
02-03-2019, 09:08 AM
» Replies: 7
» Views: 272

  Brain Tanning
Posted by: George - 04-13-2004, 03:23 AM - Forum: Hoodlum Workshop-Photos Please - Replies (13)

At Winter Count Digger told me to soak the skirt I use when smoking hide in water and then mix the brain into this. I tried it

and it helps to keep the brains from rotting so fast and they last longer. The other thing is that flies won't land in the brains

they don't like the smell of the smoke.

So far I tanned 3 antelope, 2 deer and one coyote and I still have a stack of hides to do.

Print this item

Posted by: Oldpagan - 04-12-2004, 08:25 PM - Forum: Questions and Answers - Replies (4)

Warm Greetings

The thought of Hantavirus has been in the back of my mind for years now. At this point in life where I find myself learning to be a “Hoodlum”, and not the overburdened backpacker it comes to the forefront. While getting some dirt time, I would think that we would use the best cover / shelter we could find. I would think that creatures that live in the area as well would also use this space. Also the practice of setting snares and traps for food would / could turn up one of the four carriers of Hantavirus (Deer Mice, Cotton Rats, Rice Rats, White Footed Mice) would you abandon your snare or risk it? Also I would not be able to tell if it was a field mouse, marmot, or something I shouldn’t eat like one of the above. Ideas? Thoughts? Here are a few links on Hantavirus.







Print this item

  Recoil 101
Posted by: Eric Stoskopf - 04-12-2004, 05:37 PM - Forum: Weapons FAQ - No Replies

Recoil 101

Posted By: ML - Registered User

Posts: 308

Posted At: (6/25/02 11:03 am)

Reply | Edit | Del All

When Push Comes To Shove: Calculating Recoil

There’s a very instructive post over in the "For Sale" section of this Forum, and I’m going to reproduce it (with only minor edits) here: The posting party is Riddlin, a long-time member of this Forum.


"I spent most of last year working at a couple of guest ranches and an outfitter in the Shoshone National Forest outside of Cody, Wyoming. Lots of big cuddly bears in that neck of the woods. I had with me a Marlin 1895 Cowboy model .45-70 . . . [and bought] some Garrett 540-grain Super-Hard Cast Gas-Checked Hammerhead [cartridges loaded at] 1550 FPS. . . so the box said.

"I went out to a range to let a few fly before hunting camp. Well I will recount this only for educational purposes. I fired one (1) round through the Cowboy and said ‘Goddamn boys that’s enough!’ It literally jarred my teeth. I wanted no more. We always joked in the Corps about firing the Barrett 82A1 50 without a muzzle brake; well now I feel I have just a little idea how bad it might be."

(End of quote)

Here we have a working cowboy/outfitter and former United States Marine who’s drawn the line concerning recoil, and admitting that even he has his limits given a specific firearm/cartridge combination! And by doing so, he’s done all of us a great favor. At some point, depending on the individual, firearm, and chambering, you’ve got to say enough--it just doesn’t make any sense any more, and you’re not going to be an effective shot. Any professional will tell you he’d rather work with a hunter who shoots a standard caliber well than a greenhorn who shows up with a light a super magnum he can’t shoot well due to excessive recoil.

Now I thought Our Contributor Riddlin, if he’s recovered his vision yet, might be interested in knowing just how much punishment he altruistically sucked up in the cause of our enlightenment, so I warmed up the calculator and ran some numbers, calculating the free recoil of his hot Garrett .45-70 load in that particular rifle.

But first, an aside. Many variables go into determining how much of a beating you take or don’t take from a firearm. With rifles and shotguns, stock design is a significant factor, but tough to quantify. The closest we can come to a scientific number is something called Free Recoil Energy, expressed in foot-pounds. Basically, this is force generated were the firearm suspended by strings or wires and allowed to recoil backward freely. While not perfect, it’s an instructive comparison.

The formula for calculating Free Recoil requires one to know the weight of the rifle or shotgun, the weight of the bullet or shot load, the weight of the powder, and the muzzle velocity. A formula appears as an appendix to this post.

Back in 1873 when Uncle Sam developed the .45-70 Government cartridge in the "Trapdoor" Springfield, the standard load was a 405-grain bullet propelled to 1320 feet per second by 70 grains of black powder, this launched by a 9.21-pound rifle. Cavalry troopers of the era were armed with a 7.9-pound carbine, and the recoil from the full-house rifle load was deemed too stout for these hardy souls in the lighter gun, so they were issued a 405-grain load propelled at 1150 feet per second by 55 grains of black powder.

Contributor Riddlin’s Marlin Model 1895CB "Cowboy" lever action weighs eight pounds (for all intents identical to the Cavalry’s Trapdoor Carbine) and hucks that 540-grain slug out the muzzle at 1550 feet per second.

Free Recoil Energy

Trapdoor Rifle, .45-70-405 at 1320 fps=

15.42 foot-pounds

Trapdoor Carbine, .45-55-405 at 1150 fps=

12.86 foot-pounds

And how much energy did our man in Wyoming absorb in the cause of our enlightenment?

Marlin M1895CB, .45-70-540 at 1550 fps=

43.90 foot-pounds

Buy that man a beer.

That’s almost three and a half times what the government thought a hardened cavalry trooper of the last century could absorb regularly.

Those Garretts are superb cartridges, offered by enthusiast craftsmen who are doing non-handloading shooters a great service. But they do exact a price.

The greatest lesson here, to my thinking, is that one should hesitate before one rushes out and plunks down a big wad of cash for a large-caliber magnum. Shoot a couple of hundred rounds out of a .30-’06, a .308, a .270, or even a .30-30 before you decide you really need more. If you do, and you can shoot it well, congratulations. By all means, use enough gun--just don’t handicap yourself with too much.

Best regards, and thanks to Mr. Riddlin again,



Calculating Free Recoil Energy (from Fr. Frog’s website)

Supply the following numbers, and have at it.

WG = Weight of gun in pounds

WB = Weight of bullet in grains

WP = Weight of powder charge in grains

VB = Muzzle velocity of bullet in f/s

I = Interim number (Recoil Impulse in lb/sec)

VG = Recoil velocity of gun (f/s)

EG = Recoil energy of gun (ft-lb)

I = [(WB * VB) + (WP * 4000)] / 225218

VG = 32.2 * (I / WG)

EG = (WG * VG * VG) / 64.4

Notes: The "4000" is the nominal velocity of the powder gases for commercial smokeless powder. It is sometimes stated as 4700 in some sources. You can try it with both values to see the effect of the different numbers. If you are doing these calculations for a black powder load use 2000.

Edited by: ML at: 6/25/02 12:12:42 pm

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Excellent information & painful

Posted By: Brother Dan - Registered User

Posts: 81

Posted At: (6/25/02 11:51 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

(This message was left blank)

You can know yourself only when the mind is open, unprepared to meet the unknown. - J. Krishnamurti

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Awesome! That was very informative! Thanks

Posted By: David R - Registered User

Posts: 123

Posted At: (6/26/02 9:52 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

(This message was left blank)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Recoil 101

Posted By: Mountain Goat - Registered User

Posts: 359

Posted At: (6/28/02 4:01 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

ML great post but.......

There are other contributing factors to felt recoil. The design of the stock has a great deal to do with what the end user "feels" The fit, drop at the heal, and energy absorbtion device aka recoil pad all contribute to the reduction or amplification of felt recoil. I recently got a 6.2 lbs rifle in 300 WSM (that included scope) During the purchase process I had a long discussion with the manufacturer about recoil and weight. He convinced me that there due to stock design, composition, etc that the felt recoil would be manageable (he had designed a stock that produced a recoil impulse straighter back into the shooter instead of up (rotational) and the butt of the stock was wider with a thick efficient pad. What I found was a nice rifle that had an extremely quick recoil that I could not manage. I shot it 20 times with factory loads in a number of positions and finally excerised his garantee and returned the gun and went with a .257 Roberts. Much more manageable. Mind you a hunt with a .338 Win Mag and shoot a 50 cal and 45-70's regularly but could not manage the speed and volume of recoil from a ultra light rifle. I would say that the stock design did substantially help but not enough.

Oops rambling again

Take Care


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Recoil 101

Posted By: Birdog - Registered User

Posts: 1300

Posted At: (6/28/02 5:14 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

Another thing you will want to consider if you are shooting a large caliber rifle, with a scope, is eye relief!

I hade a Rugar M-77, 7mm Magnum, with a Leupold 3X9 scope. The scope had a 3" eye relief, and when bench shooting, it was fine.

I was out hunting and a couple of Bucks burst from the trees, so I made a quick shot from a standing position. I neglected to have a tight hold against my shoulder, and wound up with a nice moon shape gash across the top of my nose. I still have a deep groove in the bone where the scope hit me. It was at least 15 minutes before my vision cleared and I had blood all over my face. It affected my shooting for a long time after that.

Print this item

  Confessions Of A Brass Buzzard
Posted by: Eric Stoskopf - 04-12-2004, 05:18 PM - Forum: Weapons FAQ - Replies (1)

Confessions of a Brass Buzzard

Posted By: ML - Registered User

Posts: 351

Posted At: (10/9/02 4:16 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del All

Confessions of a Brass Buzzard.

You’ve seen them at the shooting range. Those grizzled old guys that hover around your bench until you’re packing up, and then swoop down to pick up your discarded brass shell casings. What do these guys do when it’s dinner time--shadow a table at a restaurant and ask, "You going to finish that?" They’re pathetic. They’re disgusting.

And I’m one of them.

Let me tell you a story about the brass buzzard’s Eldorado, a tale so epic in its scope that it makes the legend of the Lost Dutchman mine look like pocket change abandoned at an inner-city bus stop.

Some Forum members may be blissfully ignorant of this sickness. Brass buzzards pick up spent brass--their own or anyone else’s--because they intend to reload it. Therein lies the first problem--many of them don’t reload, but they tell themselves that they intend to, and that’s the first step down the slippery slope of rationalization that leads, inexorably, straight to the heart of the pack-rat’s den. The cartridge case is the single most expensive component of a round of fixed ammunition, and by scrounging used cases--many of which can be reloaded many times over--the buzzard had substantially reduced the cost of assembling ammunition for future shooting.

Some shooters purchase new, virgin brass, sort it by manufacturer and lot, and meticulously keep track of how many times they reload it. The buzzard, on the other hand, is happy to catch as he can. This behavior has substantial drawbacks: the buzzard often doesn’t know how many times his brass has been fired, and consequently how much life it still has left. The buzzard’s brass is invariably commingled, mixing different brands together, and often that means small but important differences in shell-case capacity and weight. The buzzard’s brass has often sat out exposed to the elements, which may fatigue the brass further.

But buzzard brass has that one big advantage, an advantage Mark Twain once addressed when he said, "It wasn’t the best for the job, but it was the cheapest--a quality which overlooks many other faults." And Mama, ain’t nothing cheaper than free.

* * * * *

To most people, the high desert of the Mojave, north of Los Angeles by about an hour and a half, is a threatening, desolate wasteland. For a select few, though, it is a place of wonder and beauty. It’s also a fascinating place for a variety of man-made reasons as well, home to Edwards Air Force Base (where man first flew faster than the speed of sound, and where the Space Shuttle still occasionally touches down) and the China Lake Naval Weapons Center (a true gun-nut’s dreamscape). I was dragged deep into the Mojave first by my father, who dreamed of finding gold there. Later, I explored the area from the saddle of a dirt bike, and it was from behind those handlebars that I glimpsed Eldorado.

It didn’t look like much at first--an old trailer in the middle of a treeless desert surrounded by abandoned cars and machinery of all sorts. If you haven’t grown up in the American West, it’s hard to imagine that outposts like this actually exist, and today they’re often meth labs. Recently, one old desert rat got sent to prison for attempting to blind pilots flying over his property with a giant (like eight feet in diameter) concave mirror he’d picked up at China Lake. Enterprising! He’d spent a little too much time alone out there, and was a might ticked at United Airlines interrupting his communications with the extraterrestrials. But this was before all that, so I rode up to check the place out.

A crusty denizen of the Mojave (complete with Smith and Wesson Model 19 on his hip) came out, and we had a little chat. He’d amassed quite a bit of interesting machinery in his little corner of paradise, all of it baking in the desert sun. For those Forum members who have never set foot in the Mojave, it’s a unique, very dry environment. The major airlines send their mothballed airliners out to the north end of Mojave airport for storage. Rubber doesn’t last long out in the baking sun, but the hot, dry environment means metal can sit out there for decades, and other than a little patina still look new.

Trailer Man had all sorts of cool stuff he’d scavenged from China Lake and Edwards. I was most interested in one 55-gallon drum full of pulled .30-caliber armor piercing bullets, and several other drums full of once-fired USGI .30-’06 Springfield brass. We parlayed for a little bit, and I bought a couple of quarts of the .30-caliber AP, and filled the pockets of my riding jacket with them. I was interested in the brass, but we were having trouble agreeing on a price.

That’s a bit of a misstatement. You see, I really didn’t have much money then, and he really wasn’t interested in money anyway, so we began to cast around for a trade. I noticed that he had an old Toyota Land Cruiser parked at the estate. I mentioned that I had one too--a 1971 FJ55, and that I had some parts--specifically, I had a lot of engine parts, since I’d yanked the old in-line six and replaced it with a 327 Chevrolet V-8, creating a Frankenstein I alternately called the Chevota or Toyolet depending upon my mood and how it was running. Trailer Man’s eyes lit up, and we struck a deal.

A couple of weeks later, I drove the Chevota out into the Big Dez, and swapped Trailer Man a rebuilt cylinder head complete with rocker gear and new valves for his .30-’06 brass--two and a half 55-gallon drums of it. We both laughed at each other as I drove off, thinking we’d each pulled off the deal of the century and scalded the other poor bastard.

My end of the deal revealed its first setback before I’d even reached the pavement. Those FJ55s are long-bed four-doors, and I’d laid the drums down sideways. The drums had their heads cut off so they were open like big trashcans, and we’d clamped lids to them. With its 327, the Chevota was a hoot to drive on the washboard desert roads, and I was clipping along right smart when I hit a sizable washout, and one of the drums spit its head off, spilling God knows how many thousands of cases into the truck. For the next ten years, brass would mysteriously show up, even though I went through every nook and cranny of that FJ55 cleaning it out.

Second, I discovered that an empty .30-’06 Springfield shell case is what a Black Widow spider considers the perfect one-room apartment, and the thousands of Black Widows living in my thousands of new shell cases weren’t enjoying this washboard desert ride one bit. Again, for the next ten years, countless generations of pissed-off Black Widows called that FJ55 home.

What to do with a quarter-million rounds of .30-’06 brass when you’re living in a 400-square-foot apartment in the middle of Los Angeles? To my buzzard pals, I was the richest man alive--of course, at that time in our lives a significant factor of our net worth included the contents of our refrigerators. But now that I had it, what was I actually going to do with this stuff, and where was I going to store it?

In these years, lots of little nibbling commitments gnawed away at my time. I had a couple of part-time jobs. I was trying to write. I was waist-deep in graduate school, trying to read Hemingway and Faulkner and Shakespeare every night. I was working as an assistant in the Survival classes where Ron taught at CSUN. But the brass kept calling me.

So I started working it. Hell’s bells, I didn’t even own a .30-’06 then, but there’s still a lot you can do with that parent brass. I’d neck it up and neck it down. I’d shorten it, and blow the shoulders out. I borrowed dies from everyone I knew. I gave myself a repetitive stress injury from swaging out primer pockets. I broke hundreds of decapping pins. I imported a whole new generation of Black Widow spiders inside my home. I managed to produce loads for the .35 Whelen, .308 Winchester, .300 Savage, 8mm Mauser, 7mm Mauser, 7mm-’08, .280 Remington, .270 Winchester, .25-’06 Remington, .257 Roberts, .243 Winchester--even the original .30-’06. I even cut down some to make brass for my .45 ACP!

Of course, all of it had the wrong headstamps, and after a while that became its own problem. And meanwhile Hemingway and Faulkner and Shakespeare beckoned, as did the Chevota, as did the job, as did Mr. Hood’s trips and life in general.

That brass became an albatross around my neck. I tried selling some of it, but none of the other buzzards had any cash either, and all they wanted to do was trade more junk. I ended up with 600 pounds of lead wheel weights--now I was going to add bullet casting to my list of things to do. I’d trade the stuff off by the three-pound-coffee-can-full, and still I hadn’t made an appreciable dent in my supply. I swear, the stuff was asexually reproducing in the drums at night, and that after a week I’d end up with more than I’d started with. Those drums were like Poe’s Tell-Tale Heart--I’d hear them beating at night driving me nuts.

Finally I said enough, and worked an epic three-part deal to be rid of it all. But let me tell you, a man is never really rid of that much brass. Now, twenty years and two moves later, I still turn the stuff up occasionally. The Chevota is long gone, and how that brass ever got into the bed of my pickup I’ll never know, but it’s turned up there. It turns up in the pockets of old hunting jackets, in the bottom of old backpacks, in shooting bags and toolboxes and my camp kitchen. Every time I see a Black Widow, I can’t help but think that it’s the great-great-great-great-grandkid of one of those old Mojave arachnids.

Some time ago, I drove back out to the Dez to see if the old fart was still out there. I’d pretty much shot up all that .30-caliber AP (even gave a double handful to Ron way back when), and I wanted to see if there was still any left. But the old coot and his trailer were gone, like a desert mirage, and the whole place is now Honda’s Super Secret High Desert Test Track, complete with chain-link fence and remote cameras and robot dogs.

So heed my tale well, oh loyal Forum readers. That brass is probably still out there, silently multiplying for the last 20 years. There’s probably a half-dozen drums of it now. If you see it, just keep on driving and don’t look back.

And if you see some broken-down old climber lurking outside of your favorite restaurant like some scrawny stray cat, well, try to avoid making eye contact, and just throw me your doggie bag. I thank you in advance.

Best regards,



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Confessions of a Brass Buzzard

Posted By: yellercat - Registered User

Posts: 223

Posted At: (10/9/02 5:34 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

scavanging brass at the range, one of lifes simple pleasures. thanks.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

i confess...

Posted By: mark48310 - Registered User

Posts: 23

Posted At: (10/10/02 7:41 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

i pick up brass where i can and have INTENDED to reload for years now...

but it gets worse...a couple years ago i got into blacksmithing and then knifemaking after getting Ron's video last year...now i find myself off on weekly forays to the train tracks and recycle stations trying to score more steel...my garage is loaded up with probably on the order of 3-4 tons of steel, more steel than i'll ever use in a lifetime...

and yet, i was out at the RR tracks yesterday scrounging and will probably do so again today...

i find myself at the scrap steel yard BUYING the stuff too, anytime i find something "interesting"...at 20 cents a pound, who cares, right? well, do that 20 or 30 time and it adds up...i've spent hundreds of dollars on junk...literally - junk...

i used to find old a/c fans at the recycle station...would tear 'em apart for motors...intend to use the motors for grinding wheels, buffing wheels, etc. now i have more "grinding stations" in my shop than i have square feet of space...i dunno what i plan to grind with all those grinders...if worse comes to worst, maybe i can just grind down my pile of junk steel...

there has to be some use for big piles of dust...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Welcome back ML....

Posted By: wmerrin - Registered User

Posts: 574

Posted At: (10/9/02 6:27 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del


It's good to see you posting again... Great story.

You probably remember the private shooting range some guy ran on his property just off Hwy 14 a little northeast of I-5 about 25 years ago... in the Antelope Valley I think. I shot there a few times with a friend, and this guy had barrels of .38 spl and 5.56mm brass for something like a penny or two a round. How could you resist a deal like that? I actually reloaded some of the .38 spl, but the 5.56 is still in a box...



Wally Merrin


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Welcome back ML....

Posted By: Bill Hay - Registered User

Posts: 2494

Posted At: (10/9/02 6:44 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

Yeah, you wuz missed! How did your trip into those mountains go? Hope you had great time...

I got caught up in the scrounging brass affliction a while back... I actually started handloading, too! Luckily for me, I started going to Front Sight, and started buying hardball by the case load...

Ain't loaded a lick of .45 since...

I seem to recall a big crate of brass out in the garage... Sorted by caliber, and headstamp... Oughta get rid of it, I suppose. I need the room for all the knives that seem to be growing in number nowadays...

Great story, thanks for the telling...


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Welcome back ML....

Posted By: CaliCollector - Registered User

Posts: 70

Posted At: (10/9/02 9:29 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del



i too am afflicted by the brass buzzards curse, drives my wife nuts!!!!! unknown case life, dirty brass, spiders, rocks, odd ball cases that always pop up when you KNOW that you only picked up 9mm, 38spl, .357, 45LC., 44mag, and 45ACP, how in the hell did i get a bunch of 32auto brass here?? ive got several 50 cal ammo cans full of misc. brass... most sorted out by caliber, and a couple cans that are still waiting to be sorted, one of these days ill set up my reloading press again, and start pumping out target ammo on that RCBS single stage... if i get back into it again, maybe ill hear the blue dillion call my name...Ray in California

"Beware the man with only one gun, chances are he KNOWS how to use it."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Thanks, Donkey Salami

Posted By: ML - Registered User

Posts: 353

Posted At: (10/10/02 2:42 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

Thank you all for the kind greetings. Indeed, I managed to avoid any untoward alpine mishaps, although I did get my heart rate up a couple of times. In the end, eating that Donkey Salami I bought at a French street market was probably as dangerous as anything I did in the mountains. But you only live once, eh?


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

i was wondering who you were calling Donkey Salami, until i

Posted By: CaliCollector - Registered User

Posts: 86

Posted At: (10/10/02 10:36 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del


read your reply...lol... Ray in California

"Beware the man with only one gun, chances are he KNOWS how to use it."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Posted By: creature of forest - Registered User

Posts: 40

Posted At: (10/13/02 12:23 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

I used to save brass for the end of civilization as we now know it, but I eventually came to believe that with the cost of reloading supplies and the time involved, I would be better off just buying bulk ammo. Now, my excuse for brass scrounging is that I am trying to complete a collection of every caliber ever made.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I feel like a kid at Christmas time...

Posted By: Eric Stoskopf - Cool Calm Calamity

Posts: 1718

Posted At: (10/13/02 5:23 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

...everytime I spot a new post from ML.

Many thanks to ML for another wonderfully written story!


Woodsdrummer: my online wilderness journal

In the school of the woods there is no graduation day. Horace Kephart

Print this item

  More On Flash-gap Velocity Loss
Posted by: Eric Stoskopf - 04-12-2004, 04:12 PM - Forum: Weapons FAQ - No Replies

More on Flash-Gap Velocity Loss

Posted By: ML - Registered User

Posts: 454

Posted At: (8/25/03 3:04 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del All

More on Flash-Gap Velocity Loss

A while back, (last October to be specific), I posted some data in this Forum concerning barrel length and its influence on velocity, specifically in regards to handguns. In the subsequent thread, I also discussed the influences of a revolver’s flash gap (the distance between the front of the cylinder and the forcing cone of a revolver’s barrel).

Since then, I have uncovered some additional information.

One tester’s results have shown a drop of approximately 15 fps (feet per second) in muzzle velocity for every 0.001-inch of flash gap. The tester suspects this may be slightly higher for hotter, high-pressure handgun cartridges such as the.480 Ruger or the .454 Casull, although he did not test for this.

A revolver must have a flash gap in order to function correctly (the M1895 Nagant the notable exception). If the gap is too tight, reliability suffers. The SAAMI lists 0.012-inch as an industry maximum for revolver flash gap. Most current revolvers from our better manufacturers (Ruger, Smith and Wesson) beat that substantially in their tolerances. Personally, I feel a flash gap of between 0.003- and 0.004-inch is about ideal, and even 0.006-inch is nothing to raise an eyebrow over.

For the mathematically challenged or heinously lazy, a gap of 0.012-inch should result in a theoretic loss of 180 feet per second, while our ideal range of 0.003- to 0.004-inch results in a loss of just 45 to 60 fps—about four percent for a .357 Magnum-class cartridge.

Should you be interested in measuring your revolver’s flash gap, all you need to do is insert a common automotive feeler gauge such as used to adjust valve clearances between the cylinder’s face and the revolver’s forcing-cone area. Please make sure the firearm is unloaded first, and measure the clearance with the cylinder already in the latched-shut position (that is, do not attempt to close the cylinder on the gauge’s blade).

I’m not sure I’d view this information as gospel, since it’s unclear under what atmospheric conditions these tests took place, and how strict the controls were. Still, though, I have enough faith in it as a ballpark figure to share it with you here.



Re: More on Flash-Gap Velocity Loss

Posted By: wmerrin - I survived WASP

Posts: 915

Posted At: (8/25/03 6:36 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

ML's clearance numbers are of some significance. Years ago my brother bought a Ruger Stainless Security Six in .357. After firing several rounds through it the action would start to drag, and after one or two more rounds it would sieze. We determined the gap was too tight by comparing it to an identical Ruger of mine. Expansion from the heat of firing would make the gap go away. Because of that experience, not much later I was able to diagnose another guy's problem at a range when he was saying unkind things about a Ruger he had.



Of all the things I've lost, I think I miss my mind the most.

Wally Merrin



Re: More on Flash-Gap Velocity Loss

Posted By: Birdog - Registered User

Posts: 3164

Posted At: (8/26/03 4:58 am)

Reply | Edit | Del


I think the more likely culprit would be powder residue, and not heat build up, although that would also be a contributing factor. If you had removed the cylinder and cleaned the face, I'm sure it would have solved the problem, at least until you fired a few more rounds.


Re: More on Flash-Gap Velocity Loss

Posted By: wmerrin - I survived WASP

Posts: 918

Posted At: (8/26/03 1:12 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

No, it was a manufacturing error. The clearance was way too tight. I measured with feeler gauges and compared with a known-good model and they were significantly different. I solved the problem on my brother's by very carefully removing metal, with frequent stops to measure. This was years ago so I don't remember what the numbers were before or after, but the problem went away when I was done. In retrospect, the gun should have been returned to Ruger since the problem occured out of the box, but my brother didn't want to send it back.



Of all the things I've lost, I think I miss my mind the most.

Wally Merrin



Re: More on Flash-Gap Velocity Loss

Posted By: Birdog - Registered User

Posts: 3173

Posted At: (8/27/03 5:28 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

>>No, it was a manufacturing error. <<

I agree! I was just stating the reason why it froze up after a few shots.


Just to add a little information

Posted By: Handy - Registered User

Posts: 118

Posted At: (8/26/03 4:58 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

When checking clearence with the feeler gauge insert the guage after the the guns trigger and hammer are in the fired position and the cylinder is locked in position. I like between .004" and .005" flash gap. insures good function and probably better accuracy.

Print this item

  Wasted Velocity
Posted by: Eric Stoskopf - 04-12-2004, 03:03 PM - Forum: Weapons FAQ - No Replies

Wasted Velocity

Posted By: ML - Posts: 486

Posted At: (3/11/04 12:52 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del All

Muzzle Velocity and Recoil Pulse

I spent last weekend in Daytona Beach, Florida, crewing at the AMA Superbike races there. In the paddock, I ran into Kevin Cameron, an old colleague and currently the technical editor for Cycle World magazine.

Mr. Cameron’s not a gun guy, but he is a polymath and a great student of the physical world. Conversations with him are always enlightening. He and I talked about a couple of things, one of which got me to thinking about the true bullet speed of high-velocity rifles.

If you stayed awake during Fr. Koch’s Physics 101 lectures—and I managed to on some occasions—you’ll remember the Sir Isaac Newton’s Third Law of Motion: namely, for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You intuitively know that as it applies to firearms: launch a heavier bullet, or launch it faster, and the rifle kicks harder. A violent kick is unpleasant, and contributes to flinching and inaccuracy on the part of the operator. But it does more, too: It reduces muzzle velocity. How? Consider this.

In the real world, we only care how fast the bullet flies compared to the target, the wind, or the ground. But the faster the rifle kicks back, the less speed is imparted to the bullet. Look at two extreme examples, both using a cartridge/bullet/powder/barrel-length combination which launches the bullet at a nice, round 3000 feet-per-second (fps) velocity at a constant altitude/atmospheric density. In Example A, we bolt the rifle down solidly to the Hoover Dam, a 5,500,000-ton edifice. The rifle cannot move. When we touch off the charge, we see a true bullet speed (velocity) of 3000 fps.

Now, Example B. Let’s say our bullet weighs 150 grains (we should also, theoretically, add some weight for the ejecta of unburned powder and the weight of the propelling gas, but we’ll ignore those here for the sake of simplicity). And let’s say our imaginary rifle also weight but 150 grains. When we touch off the charge, the bullet and the rifle will each move with the same velocity, but in opposite directions. Thus, we will see our bullet propelled at 1500 fps forward (just half of its original value relative to the ground/target), while our very light rifle is also propelled at 1500 fps backward.

In reality, of course, our rifles weigh much more than 150 grains. There being 7000 grains to the pound (at least this morning), a typical deer-hunting rifle with a telescopic sight, a sling and a magazine full of ammunition weight something more like 63,000 grains, or 420 times the amount of the bullet in this example. And factor in, too, some fraction of the weight made up by the shooter’s shoulder and upper body.

Still, though, the result is undeniable: as a rifle kicks you harder, it’s stealing velocity from the bullet, and this is part of the reason that an ammunition manufacturer’s published velocity data is often higher than what you will see from your chronograph. First, they often gather velocity from an action bolted solidly to a test fixture. Second, they often use long, 26-inch barrels (each additional inch of barrel length may boost velocity between 20 and 40 fps for a given typical rifle caliber). They’re not lying to you, but you’ll be hard-pressed to duplicate their results unless you duplicate their testing methods.

What does this mean in the real world? Not much. Precisely because the bullet weighs so much less than the rifle, increasing the powder charge or using a more powerful chambering almost always does increase velocity. Just remember, it just increases it at both ends.

Here’s another way to think of it. At Daytona, race fuel for the Superbikes costs about $15 per gallon. Seem steep? Consider this: About $12.30 of that was "wasted" money. How’s that? Because out of that $15 worth of gas, only $2.70 cents actually went towards propelling the racebike down the track. The other twelve-bucks-and-change (or 81.9 percent) went towards just heating up the atmosphere (waste heat through exhaust 45 percent, waste heat into the cooling system 30 percent, other internal losses—mostly friction—seven percent or so). Damn that Fr. Koch and his laws of physics!

Think of all that "wasted" gas as the equvilent of recoil. I’d sure like to have that money back. And I sure wish my .375 H&H didn’t kick so hard. But that’s the price of doing business in the physical world (thank you, Wallace Stevens). And, personally, I wouldn’t have it any other way.




Re: Wasted Velocity

Posted By: Clifton Clowers - Registered User

Posts: 33

Posted At: (3/11/04 4:35 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del


Is the action-reaction of a bullet and rifle literally instantaneous? That is, does the rifle begin to move backward at the exact same instant the bullet begins to move forward? Everything I've ever read about internal ballistics and mechanics leads me to believe that it does -- or that it does at 300 km/sec (speed of light). If so, why is it that the barrel does not apparently move enough to affect accuracy by the time the bullet leaves the barrel? To wit the recoil of, say, a .458 Lott in a 9 pound Model 70 is rather severe. Why doesn't the barrel rise affect the path of the bullet before it leaves the muzzle? Is the barrel rise not sufficient to affect the barrel? It sure doesn't feel that way.

Tango mike,



Re: Wasted Velocity

Posted By: Birdog - Posts: 4096

Posted At: (3/12/04 6:54 am)

Reply | Edit | Del


So what effect does a recoil compensater have, compared to bullet velocity?


Re: Wasted Velocity

Posted By: Cody - Posts: 121

Posted At: (3/12/04 1:30 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

"Why doesn't the barrel rise affect the path of the bullet before it leaves the muzzle? Is the barrel rise not sufficient to affect the barrel? It sure doesn't feel that way."

I'd guess that the force, in the form of expanding gasses within the chamber, must overcome inertia of both the rifle and the bullet.

So a rifle with 420 times the mass of the bullet will accellerate much more slowly than the bullet itself. I'd bet that by the time the bullet has accellerated and gained enough velocity to leave the barrel, the gun itself is just overcoming inertia (its tendancy to stay at rest) and beginning to move significantly.

Edited by: Cody at: 3/12/04 1:32 pm


A Couple of Answers

Posted By: ML - Posts: 488

Posted At: (3/12/04 1:30 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

Two excellent questions. And, luckily, we’re in possession of a couple of answers today. (Whether those answers are of equal quality, we shall soon see.) First, the issue of how fast all this occurs.

Yes, it is instantaneous. Recoil starts the moment the cartridge ignites. Remember, though, as another Forum member points out, that the rifle, weighing so many hundred times more than the bullet, is also in possession of much, much more inertial mass, and consequently is much slower to accelerate rearward. In addition, once set into motion, it continues to accelerate (recoil) rearward long after the bullet has left the muzzle.

Recoil certainly affects the bullet’s flight through the barrel and accuracy, although the physiological effects here far outweigh the purely physical—by that I mean since a human being is part of the equation, flinching or pulling the shot generally far outweigh the effects of recoil per se on the firearm.

So far, this is just a bunch of theory, but we can see it handily in the real world. Keep making the bullet heavier and the firearm lighter, and the practical physical effects of recoil begin to reveal themselves. Here’s a fine example:

What do you call a two and a half-pound rifle with a short barrel firing a 300-grain bullet? A large-caliber handgun. Let’s take a revolver chambered for the .44 Remington Magnum or the .45 (Long) Colt and fire a light bullet through it, and note the point of impact. Now, let’s fire a heavier bullet through the same handgun. Most logic leads us to believe that the heavier bullet will strike lower than the light bullet, as it travels more slowly and consequently should drop more as gravity acts upon if for a longer time. Yet invariably we see heavier bullets fired out of large-caliber handguns strike higher at typical handgun ranges (say, 25 yards). Why?

Recoil. Since the heavier bullet travels through the barrel more slowly (technically, it has a longer barrel-residence time), the forces of recoil act upon it to a greater degree while it is still in the barrel, compared with the lighter (faster) bullet. To exaggerate the case, the lighter (faster) bullet has already left the barrel by the time the handgun’s muzzle begins to rise appreciably, while the heavier (slower) bullet is still in some part of the barrel, and the rising muzzle changes the barrel’s angle, sending the bullet on a flight path which results in a higher point of impact. As an additional proof of the recoil-not-gravity phenomena here, take that same large-caliber handgun, rotate it 90 degrees (clockwise or anti-clockwise, your choice) and repeat the light bullet/heavy bullet experiment. You’ll find that in every case, the heavy bullet prints above the light bullet’s point of impact (the word "above" as used here meaning above the orientation of the original sight plane), even though gravity or air resistance did not rotate 90 degrees with you.

The result is far less pronounced with a rifle, because the bullets are (almost always) much faster and lighter, not only in terms of absolute weight but in the more important ratio of bullet weight to firearm/upper torso mass. Yet the handgun example clearly shows that recoil begins far before the bullet leaves the muzzle, and we can readily see that it continues long after the bullet clears the barrel.

Which leads us right into our second question for the morning, concerning muzzle brakes.

Virtually all muzzle brakes function by re-directing the combustion gasses backwards and/or up, counteracting a typical rifle’s tendency to recoil backwards and upwards (the gas trying to push the firearm forwards and down). Now, some small amount of gas (air) is pushed ahead of the bullet as it travels down the barrel, but the lion’s share—by far—of the muzzle brake’s effectiveness comes from the much greater, faster-moving volume of gas which is pushing the bullet forward. So here, really no anti-recoil effect takes place until the bullet has cleared the muzzle (or, more properly, the brake). Yet we just stated that recoil starts at the moment of ignition, so how can a muzzle brake reduce recoil, which they most certainly do?

Ah, remember that we said that recoil lasts long after the bullet has left the muzzle? That’s exactly the portion of recoil that the muzzle brake attempts to reduce. That great mass of rifle and shooter, once set into motion, wants to remain in motion, and the muzzle brake attempts (and succeeds in some fashion) to impart an equal-but-opposite reaction.

A couple of other observations at this point: First, while some muzzle brakes do indeed reduce the felt recoil pulse, they invariably increase perceived muzzle blast by necessarily redirecting it towards the shooter, which may cause flinching problems of its own, especially for shooters who are not using hearing protection.

Second, muzzle brakes influence barrel harmonics. This is neither bad nor good in itself. A tunable muzzle brake like Browning’s BOSS may let the shooter fine-tune barrel harmonics to a particular load. They are also "infinitely maladjustable" as the late Gordon Jennings used to remind me—meaning that you’re probably more likely than not to degrade your rifle’s inherent accuracy with them. For real-world proof here, look to the world of the fussy target shooter. Invariably, rifles used for absolute pinpoint accuracy (at least in any chambering less than .50 BMG) do not use a muzzle brake; rather, they feature simple crowned "conventional" barrels.

And a final thought. Much of this recoil-pulse/lost velocity issue, while interesting, is only a small bit of the large equation of shooting—an interesting meditation for my morning commute, but nothing to get hung up upon. It is a truth, but only one part of the much greater truth effecting your shooting.

Still, thanks for asking, and I hope I’ve answered your questions adequately.

Yankee Victor Whiskey,



Re: A Couple of Answers

Posted By: Clifton Clowers - Registered User

Posts: 35

Posted At: (3/12/04 6:45 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

"...it continues to accelerate (recoil) rearward long after the bullet has left the muzzle." Hmmmm. I don't think so, not after the mass of the bullet and the gases have left the barrel. But the rest of the discussion... hmmmm... and hmmmmmmm. One must ponder for a while. Thou art a scholar of no insignificant magnitude, Dr. ML.

Quebec Echco Delta,

C. Clowers,

HMS Wolverton Mountain,



Recoil clarification

Posted By: ML - Posts: 489

Posted At: (3/12/04 7:25 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

(Quote): "...it continues to accelerate (recoil) rearward long after the bullet has left the muzzle." Hmmmm. I don't think so, not after the mass of the bullet and the gases have left the barrel.

Most correct insofar as the word accelerate, and I retract that. But the mass of the firearm, once set in motion, continues in motion. Again, we can best see this exaggerated demonstration with a handgun. Observe the severe muzzle flip--certainly you've seen photographs or experienced it yourself. Often, the muzzle ends up pointing skyward at a 45-degree angle, or even as much as straight up. Yet clearly, the bullet has been launched on a (fundamentally) horizontal path--clear evidence to even a dolt like me that the recoil cycle endures long after the bullet has left the firearm.

Sharp observation, though. Thanks for the correction and keeping me (and everyone else here) honest.



Re: A Couple of Answers

Posted By: Birdog - Posts: 4108

Posted At: (3/13/04 11:53 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

Thankjs for the excellent replay, but you bring up another question, What is a crowned barrel? How does it affect accuracy?


Muzzle Crowns

Posted By: ML - Posts: 490

Posted At: (3/15/04 10:46 am)

Reply | Edit | Del

Muzzle Crowns

To answer Birdog's question, muzzle’s crown is the shape applied to the junction of the bore/barrel terminus. Now, that’s a bit of a mouthful, but it’s something you can easily observe for yourself with a rifle, a handgun, and many shotguns.

In theory, a firearm’s bore should be absolutely centered in the barrel, and absolutely perpendicular to the end of the barrel. In reality, that is often not the case, and, even if it were, the slightest ding or nick here could damage this critical bore/muzzle interface. Remember, this interface is the very last contact the bullet has with the weapon as it’s launched on its trajectory, and any instability or irregularity imparted here will act to sabotage the bullet’s true flight all the way to the target.

This being the real world, we must do something to protect this interface. And the solution that has evolved over time has proven quite practical and elegant: simply countersink this junction below the very end of the barrel.

Sometimes this is an angular countersink, a chamfer really, that breaks the sharp, 90-degree bore/end-of-barrel junction. Note that this will also move the true bore itself just slightly below the end of the barrel—we’re talking about 0.040 of an inch or so, enough to be easily seen with the naked eye or felt with a fingertip, but a subtlety likely to go unseen unless you’re looking for it to be sure.

On handguns—especially revolvers—a rounded crown is often used. Here, the "countersink" curves from the bore outwards, and then curves back towards the barrel’s exterior. Again, this serves to protect the bore’s terminus by providing a beefy "ring" of barrel material around it.

While you’re looking at your firearm’s muzzle (unloaded first, please!) here’s a little note of historic trivia. Oven the past couple of decades, I’ve examined the bores of quite a few Mosin-Nagant and Mauser rifles used in the Second World War. Many of them have had their bores counterbored back as much as an inch or more. We’re not talking about a subtle crown here—we’re talking about running a reamer down the bore big enough to completely remove all the rifling and open the bore up significantly. Why?

First, consider this: One of the reasons we clean firearms from the breech is because we lazy humans have a nasty habit of dragging grit-laden cleaning rods up against the muzzle end of the rifling, ovaling-out the bore at the muzzle.

Second, many of these arms saw hard service under field conditions for many years. Any soldier soon learns that dirt, snow, and moisture which gets into the barrel soon ruins the bore and attracts unkind words from your sergeant. So both soviet and German troops often plugged their Mosin-Nagant or Mauser Kar98k muzzles with small bits of fabric. Unfortunately, this fabric wicked and held moisture, even in the hot Russian summers.

Between the plugged-muzzle-induced rust and the out-of-round condition caused by prolonged poor in-field cleaning, many of these rifles were in trouble by 1945. Simply trimming the barrel back an inch or two and recrowning would have solved the problem, but since all of these weapons utilized iron sights, were set up to take a bayonet, and were in fact military arms (were everything must be uniform), the Russians used this deep counterbore to clean them up and maintain serviceability. (Every Kar98k I’ve seen counterbored in this fashion has been an arm captured by the Russians and evidencing other signs of soviet-arsenal overhaul.)

A quick little trip through Google turns up this website with a couple of good muzzle-crown photos which will no doubt help clarify my murky prose:


Hope that clarifies the waters a little,


Print this item

  Need Help, New Tent?
Posted by: frediver - 04-11-2004, 11:05 PM - Forum: Questions and Answers - Replies (14)

I've got only one more day to make up my mind. I have an REI certificate burning a hole in my pocket good for 20% but it's the last day.

I've been thinking for a while about a new tent. I want something fairly light, but with more floor room than seems to be offered these days. I think my best option is with a pyramid style, floorless.

I know Ron and Karen have one, if you are reading this do you like it?? Any problems? Who made it? I am looking at the Bibler (BlackDiamond) Megamid or Megamid lite, any reason for one or the other? Also considering the Golite Hex 3.

Anyone have any experience with any of these tents? What do you think of them?

Or should I just get a tarp instead?

One other option is the MSR Treker tent. A more traditional pup-tent style. One side opens up as an awning like the old Whelen style.


Print this item

  Kydex Sheath Making
Posted by: Guest - 04-11-2004, 03:33 PM - Forum: Weapons FAQ - No Replies

Heres The Deal......

Posted By: Normark - Registered User

Posts: 549

Posted At: (3/9/03 5:11 pm)

Reply | Edit | Del

Hey Guys....


Forming synthetics can be as complicated or as easy as you want it..

Depending on how you want to mold will dictate the final product...

The info a Texas Supply... Throw it in the garbage and do it properly from the beginning...

First you will need a press of some type...

2-2X6" boards or even better 2X8's will work better..

Make sure they are flat,,no crowning..

Spray adhesive 2 layers each of blue sleeping pad foam onto each piece.

On the bottom mold screw 2 2"X2" feet to raise it off the bench.

You will need at least 3 LARGE C-clamps or pipe clamps.

One at each end, one in the middle. The more pressure you use, the better the outcome.

Secondly, you will need to tape your blade. 4-6 layers on each side,,depending..

The more layers of tape the more rattle you will get.The fewer layers, the more scratching will possibly happen.

I'd rather fit rattles than scratches...

Get a heat gun..

Keep you surfaces clean, knife clean and taped edges clean..

Get your clamps ready to go in open position..You don't want to waste valuable time opening them.

Depending on how you want to form, either pouch style or pancake (two piece) style...Truthfully, fold over or pouch is the easiest way to go...

Heat you plastic to touch,,use you hands with thin cotton gloves..

Keep testing the plastic to make sure it has the right amount of heat..

I do Everything by feel, and can tell if a certain area is not up to molding temp..

If you see white when you fold,, you've damaged the piece, throw it away.

When plastic is at temp, lay it on your mold, insert the knife fold it over and pull the knife spine into the fold while holding the open end.

Make sure to leave room for the tip.At least one inch.

You will also want to go once inch at least further than you want to go on the the knife handle. At least 1.5 inch more than the knife edge..

Fold the top mold over and hold it down as you tighten your clamps. Tighten the middle clamp first, then the end clamps... Tighten as much as you can...

This can be sometimes a two person job...Work Fast!!!

You can use a Quick Clamp in the middle to free up your hands, then go to town on the end clamps...

Wait at least 10 minutes, then remove your new sheath...

If you find finger imprints in the plastic,,reheat only the effeted area, and reclamp... If you find waves, your mold may be warping from the pressure, or you aren't using enough pressure.

I use custom made 2 ton presses, designed only for this type of work.. The more pressure you use, the crisper your lines will be.. Even steady downward pressure is the answer...

Now the adjustment phase will begin..

This is rather complicated and different on every single knife...

You have to understand where the kydex is locking the knife..Find this and adjust it, so the knife will go in and out as well as lock in place...

The area around the guard of the knife is the first place to start...

Again every knife is different,,and its nothing I can really explain,, it all comes with experience,,so you'll have to experiment a little...

This is the basics of sheathing...

Don't believe any of that rock the knife back and forth BS... Trust me, it'll look like shit, and fit even worse...

Have Phun..


Print this item

  Rain Chaps
Posted by: DIRTY DOC - 04-11-2004, 01:26 PM - Forum: Questions and Answers - Replies (4)

Has anyone out there ever used Rain Chaps? I am most interested in the ones made by Outdoor Reaserch called Exped Chaps, but any brand that you have had success with would be OK with me. I am thinking of getting a pair to use with my poncho when the weather really gets nasty.

Dirty Doc

Print this item

  Question For Ron
Posted by: N8QGE - 04-11-2004, 11:38 AM - Forum: Questions and Answers - Replies (10)

Quote:As long as you can buy three nine volt batteries, pure silver and distilled water, you can have the stuff.

Ok, call me somewhat uninformed, but what are the plans for making this stuff?

Disclaimer: I understand that the risk that I may be taking is of my own free will and that I will hold no one responsible other than myself.

Print this item